Re: [pgsql-advocacy] PostgreSQL.org Design Proposal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-www-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org
> [mailto:pgsql-www-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org] On Behalf Of Mitch Pirtle
> Sent: 28 October 2004 14:41
> To: PostgreSQL www; PostgreSQL advocacy
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] PostgreSQL.org
> Design Proposal
>
> I'm one of the people that enthusiastically offered to help,
> and have since jumped to 'lurker' status.
>
> There's a couple of reasons for this, and I know enough
> people to be confident that this is a common theme. Most
> folks willing to help out here are of a technical nature, and
> when these people find out the new site is a homegrown effort
> they lose interest immediately. Why in the world would
> someone want to build their own when there are hundreds,
> HUNDREDS of portal tooklits and CMS to choose from? To an
> experienced developer this is like slowly removing your
> fingernails with a dull razor that was just dipped in fresh
> lemon juice.

We looked at a number of solutions - and found none that met our
requirements for easy translation and mirroring of virtually all
content. We cannot replicate database backed content to our mirror
network - that problem alone discounted the vast majority of CMS's out
there.

> Second, it seems there are a couple people that insist that
> everything is going fine, and that (more or less) everything
> must be done their way(TM).

I assume you mean me and a few other people? Well yes, most of us have
been here a long time, are heavily involved in not just the website but
all the infrastructure, and most importantly have been involved in all
the dicussions of the various technical issues we face. So indeed, I
think it's fairly safe to say that it should be done our way unless
someone else with a similar understanding of the overall picture has a
better solution.

In particular though, we are *not* receptive to suggestions regarding
decisions made long ago - for example, we are not going to consider
using a new framework, when 95% of the existing development is complete.

> There are other people that are
> convinced that nothing is getting done, and appear so
> desperate that they will take anything that they can get.
> The disparity to me (a relative outsider) indicates that
> whatever effort I put into this is at risk of either being
> duplicated or dropped altogether before ever seeing daylight.

Not at all, if you work on the 'official' project.

> I joined the Mambo CMS team beause I realized it was an
> interesting-but-pointless exercise creating my own CMS, but
> mainly to also wire in support for Postgres ;-) Drupal, and
> others could also fit the bill. I just can't see that the
> website for a database is so special that it requires a
> ground-up approach of cobbled-together libraries and proprietary code.

Err, yeah. Ever heard of PHP & Pear?

> Third, the 'web presence' of the Postgres community as a
> whole is a mess. Gborg, pgfoundry, www, advocacy, how many
> other sites are there? And in what state? Sheesh, this is
> as bad as python. (slaps
> forehead)

Precisely my point - we know this, and its part of the longterm plan.
Catch up on the previous discussions first, and then you'll be in a
better position to object to doing it 'our way (TM)'.

> We just had someone submit a graphical layout proposal for
> the new site (which I considered brilliant), hoping to help.
> They were
> immediately told 'thanks, but no thanks'. ?

Yes, because we (pgsql-www), and the core have accepted a design
already, and we (in particular Alexey) been working to bring it live. I
assume you have looked at the project site and have seen all the commits
to the CVS tree? What would you have us do - start over every time
another nice design came in?

> I would love to help out, but after a couple weeks of reading
> the threads I'm not sure how to help, or if it is really
> welcome. Who is in charge, what is the plan, and how can I
> (realistically) help?

This is open source - there is no 'in charge'. However, the technical
lead in the www project is Alexey. Marc Fournier, Robert Treat, Devrim
Gunduz and I look after most of the day-to-day web *and* other
infrastructure, however that is mainly operational stuff - we do little
actual coding on the websites.

If you want to know what needs doing, then you only need look back in
this thread - there's been the urls of the test site and it's todo list
posted.

Regards, Dave