Re: Q&A at Postgres Women talk at pgconf.eu

There is nothing wrong with emotional responses. I was happy to see that
the speakers were so engaged, passionate and already well-informed about
the issues. Do the speakers feel that they could have used more references,
evidence and speaking points than they already had?

What is the appropriate length for a question in one of these sessions so
that I can better host/moderate one in the future?

Thank you,
Katie

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 12:02 PM Olga Kalinina <
olga(dot)v(dot)kalinina(at)googlemail(dot)com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I also was in the session and I basically agree with everyone in this
> thread: the question was not friendly and poorly phrased, but it could have
> been handled more gracefully and less emotionally (especially since the
> speaker had an excellent answer which probably did not get across too well
> in the haste).
>
> Since this is the question that will most probably come up again and
> again, I think we should be prepared to answer it over and over again (not
> only in talks but also in private conversations), and collecting references
> and material will definitely help. I think this mailing list is an
> excellent opportunity to share these things. Everyone will feel more
> confident having back-up evidence.
>
> On a side note, maybe room hosts could sometimes more actively moderate
> discussions preventing these too long questions? The speaker is just too
> engaged and it can feel uncomfortable for her to interrupt a question.
>
> Finally, I’d like to thank Ilaria, Lætitia and Renee for preparing the
> talk and generally for standing up for women in the community (and everyone
> else involved of course), and Katie for hosting the session! Great job!
>
> Best,
> Olga
>
> On 20. Oct 2019, at 16:26, Katherine Mcmillan <kmcmi046(at)uottawa(dot)ca> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi all,
>
> As you may not be aware, we had run out of time on that talk, and because
> the speakers were over at the side addressing this man's question, they
> were unable to see that the time had run out. The talk was 3 minutes
> over-time, and the question/answer period had to be cut off. As a group,
> we were respectful of everyone asking questions, including this person. In
> fact, we let him go on several minutes over time, and because his
> "question" went on so long, it prevented another attendee at the talk from
> asking her question, despite her having her hand raised for several minutes.
>
> I do not agree that Renee, nor anyone else, was dismissive of the question
> or handled it poorly. In fact, Renee and the speakers chatted with the
> asker for as long as possible after the talk as well. I felt they did a
> good job in the time that was left to address the question, which, in my
> opinion, came across as someone just pulling
> anti-feminist/anti-inclusion/anti-affirmative action rhetoric from the
> 1950s. He did not quote any statistics, references, or evidence in his
> "question", yet the talk contained qualitative, quantitative, and anecdotal
> evidence on the issue.
>
> Congratulations to all the speakers on your composure; I personally felt
> you did great and it was a pleasure to host your talk.
>
> Sincerely,
> Katie
>
> On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 8:43 AM Valeria Kaplan <vk(at)dataegret(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> Agree on that one! I think have some resources on the topic would really
>> be helpful. Not only to those who ask questions like that, but also to
>> those of us who are aware of the problem but sometimes in discussions with
>> colleagues trying to answer questions exactly like that one.
>>
>> My issue was more about way the interaction was handled and I guess it
>> was that question that triggered a quite emotionally charged answer.
>>
>> Sometimes the emotion is good, it shows that you're passionate about a
>> topic but sometimes the focus should be on the question and answer and
>> that's where emotion may not be as helpful.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2019, 13:28 Stefanie Janine Stölting, <
>> mail(at)stefanie-stoelting(dot)de> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> This is just my impression of what happened.
>>>
>>> I felt exactly the same as Lætitia as it happened. I only got it right
>>> afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot the name).
>>>
>>> If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I do in case this
>>> question turns up..." it would have been a different case, we could than
>>> just have told him to discuss this afterwards and we would have pointed to
>>> the importance of that question and what could be done/said in such cases.
>>>
>>> It's fair enough to come up with that question as someone who isn't
>>> targeted by this in exactly that talk.
>>> Maybe we should put some sources together and point to them when that
>>> question will come up again.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Stefanie
>>>
>>> Am 19. Oktober 2019 09:43:59 MESZ schrieb "Lætitia Avrot" <
>>> laetitia(dot)avrot(at)gmail(dot)com>:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Valeria,
>>>>
>>>> As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in
>>>> tech, I got the "you're not here because you're good but because you're a
>>>> woman" assertion so many times in my career that when the guy pointed that
>>>> out, my head was like "not that argument again".
>>>>
>>>> And I know for a fact that several women were given that kind of speech
>>>> here at pgconfeu this year. I felt like I didn't want new postgres women to
>>>> be confronted with that so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conversation.
>>>>
>>>> The thing about that is we work hard to give great abstracts to CFPs.
>>>> That's a fact and it's not questionable. We have no way to know if our
>>>> gender is used in favor or against us during the selection, so on what data
>>>> should we rely? Facts or hypothesis?
>>>>
>>>> Am I selected because my abstract is good, because I'm a woman or
>>>> because I'm now well-known in the community? There is no way to answer
>>>> that question and I know that question very well because it's always in my
>>>> head. I finally decided that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give me
>>>> room to speech, so I take it.
>>>>
>>>> The other thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker
>>>> who asks himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. They
>>>> simply don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'default'.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, I totally understand your point and our answer might have been
>>>> a bit too emotional because based on fear generated by multiple wrong past
>>>> experiences. Thank you for having pointed that out and we'll get better.
>>>>
>>>> Have a nice day,
>>>>
>>>> Lætitia
>>>>
>>>> Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 à 17:49, Valeria Kaplan <vk(at)dataegret(dot)com> a
>>>> écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> In light of openness and acceptance within our community I just wanted
>>>>> to raise an issue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the
>>>>> conference and hear your thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> During a Postgres Women Q&A session at pgconf.eu there was a question
>>>>> from one of the attendees that I don't think was handled very well. The
>>>>> question was from a guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point about
>>>>> increasing the number of female speakers at events. He wasn't able to
>>>>> finish his question as the microphone has been taken from him and as he
>>>>> wanted to comment further he wasn't given a microphone back.
>>>>>
>>>>> This actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want
>>>>> equality in the community we must treat any questions people have with
>>>>> respect and snatching a microphone from them is a lack of basic
>>>>> courtesy that one expects regardless to the gender, believe etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Postgres Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not to
>>>>> act towards the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their
>>>>> behaviour towards minority. This might send a wrong message and actually
>>>>> have an opposite effect than what we are trying to achieve in the
>>>>> community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Valeria
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM Lætitia Avrot <
>>>>> laetitia(dot)avrot(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I'm still learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't
>>>>>> think to take people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other way than
>>>>>> sending this invitation here to everyone. We'll get better next time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some quick information here :
>>>>>> - the dinner is sponsor, you just need to take care of your drinks
>>>>>> - the dinner time is 7:30 PM
>>>>>> - the restaurant is Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed)
>>>>>> - before the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink only with
>>>>>> women (we're actively looking for a place)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have a nice day,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lætitia
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> *Paper doesn’t grow on trees. Please print responsibly.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>