Re: initdb createuser commands

On 10/29/2016 03:31 AM, Samuel Williams wrote:
> (For some reason the first time I sent this message it was blocked due
> to the keyword "sub-". So, I've changed that and am re-sending.)
>
> I think there is an opportunity here to make the experience for new
> users better.
>
> Firstly, I think having one or two top level commands, perhaps pga
> [postgres admin], and pg [postgres client], with well documented
> subcommands. Ideally `man pg` would tell you all the client commands
> and `man pga` would tell you all the server commands. It could even be
> implemented in the same way git is implemented with subcommands (e.g.
> git foo maps to git-foo internally).
>
> When I see a bare command like `initdb` I wonder where that comes
> from, how it relates to postgres and it also concerns me that it
> doesn't seem to be obviously part of postgres. The same, when I saw
> `createuser` I wondered if that was a postgres command, or an OS level
> user creation command, or something else. It's one more thing that I
> have to look up.
>
> This is a cognitive load during the time when a new user is already
> struggling to come to grips with all the other facets of the system. 7
> +/- 2.
>
> It's hard for a new user to know what commands are available because
> the naming of commands doesn't follow any consistent structure. I
> can't type pg<tab> and see something. In contrast `mysqladmin` has a
> really good summary (similar to pg_ctl). Additionally, I'd gently
> suggest that underscore in commonly used commands can be a pain for
> certain keyboard layouts, even for me I have to use the shift key to
> get type the command. `pgctl` would be easier to type.
>
> While this may seem really trivial, to a new user it's not a great
> experience out of the box.
>
> I think these things could be really easy to improve (low hanging
> fruit) and make the experience a lot better. Given how awesome
> postgres is in other areas, it's disappointing that the command line
> tools don't reflect the same level of engineering and thoughtfulness.
>
> On 29 October 2016 at 16:36, Samuel Williams
> <space(dot)ship(dot)traveller(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
>> I think there is an opportunity here to make the experience for new
>> users better.
>>
>> Firstly, I think having one or two top level commands, perhaps pga
>> [postgres admin], and pg [postgres client], with well documented
>> sub-commands. Ideally `man pg` would tell you all the client commands
>> and `man pga` would tell you all the server commands. It could even be
>> implemented in the same way git is implemented with sub-commands (e.g.
>> git foo maps to git-foo internally).
>>
>> When I see a bare command like `initdb` I wonder where that comes
>> from, how it relates to postgres and it also concerns me that it
>> doesn't seem to be obviously part of postgres. The same, when I saw
>> `createuser` I wondered if that was a postgres command, or an OS level
>> user creation command, or something else. It's one more thing that I
>> have to look up.
>>
>> This is a cognitive load during the time when a new user is already
>> struggling to come to grips with all the other facets of the system. 7
>> +/- 2.

These are the commands a new user will need:

pg_ctl
psql
pg_dump
pg_dumpall
pg_restore

>>
>> It's hard for a new user to know what commands are available because
>> the naming of commands doesn't follow any consistent structure. I
>> can't type pg<tab> and see something. In contrast `mysqladmin` has a
>> really good summary (similar to pg_ctl). Additionally, I'd gently
>> suggest that underscore in commonly used commands can be a pain for
>> certain keyboard layouts, even for me I have to use the shift key to
>> get type the command. `pgctl` would be easier to type.
>>
>> While this may seem really trivial, to a new user it's not a great
>> experience out of the box.
>>
>> I think these things could be really easy to improve (low hanging
>> fruit) and make the experience a lot better. Given how awesome
>> postgres is in other areas, it's disappointing that the command line
>> tools don't reflect the same level of engineering and thoughtfulness.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 29 October 2016 at 13:46, John R Pierce <pierce(at)hogranch(dot)com> wrote:
>>> On 10/28/2016 4:55 PM, Samuel Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Even if maintaining the old commands, they could print
>>>> out to stderr "This command is deprecated and now wraps `pg_ctl init`.
>>>> Please use that command in the future".
>>>
>>>
>>> except its the other way around. pg_ctl initdb invokes initdb, not the
>>> other way around.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian(dot)klaver(at)aklaver(dot)com