Re: Re: [pgsql-www] We should not transition to apt.postgresql.org until we have a PPA

On 02/14/2013 07:35 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Folks,
>
> (1) Issue with instructions on Ubuntu 12.04
>
> 1. install the key using the wget command.

and that is a problem?

>
> 2. there is no pgdg.list file to edit, per instructions. Nor, for that
> matter, is there a pgdg.pref file. If the instructions mean *create*
> these files from scratch, they should say that.

"edit" in my interpretation of the phrasing there includes creating the
file - if you have a better wording to suggest please provide a patch...

>
> ===========
>
> (2) Problem with general process
>
> The instructions expressed on the page involve 6 steps, three of which
> require editing text files with persnickety syntax, thus requiring an
> intimate knowledge of Debian packaging, and mapping your numerical
> release number to the "cute" release names, and rearranging lines of a
> large complex system-generated file, and messing with repository keys.

not sure what the "intimitate knowledge requirement" here is - pasting
exactly the strings proposed is enough and there is not a single
requirement on understanding debian packaging, though i have to admit
that NOT understanding it is kinda a sign that you should not have root
on the debian based box you are on and you are an admin for.

>
> Frankly, installing PostgreSQL from source will be easier than following
> those instructions. It represents a return to "PostgreSQL is hard to
> install" for Ubuntu users.

I very much doubt that - because just for a starter getting all the
build requirements on a typical ubuntu box in place is way more complex
than following the very trival steps on the above mentioned docs

>
> Compare this to the simple and largely infallable sequence for
> installing the PPA:
>
> 1. apt-get install python-software-properties
> 2. add-apt-repository ppa:pitti/postgresql
> 3. apt-get update
> 4. apt-get install postgresql-9.2

I completely fail to see how that is fundamentally different from the
docs that we have now (not saying they cannot be improved) - once you
have decided that an external package source is ok, the actual 30s or
45s you need to invest to make that true does not matter at all.

>
> That's *it*. No text files to edit, no keys to mess with, no finicky
> syntax to learn. Just four commands which can be put in a simple shell
> script and deployed across a dozen servers, thanks to Martin's good work.
>
> The new process represents a 20X increase in sysadmin time to install
> PostgreSQL on a server. This will result in less PostgresQL
> installations. Do we really want that?

I really think you need to step back a bit - editing a textfile or two
vs typing a few lines on the commandline is hardly a 20x increase in
sysadmin time. And even if it would be 5s(ppa) vs 100s(what we have now)
for the first install that is not even measurable noise in any deployment.

>
> Alternately, Martin, this will mean (for our professional clients)
> switching from Ubuntu to Red Hat/Fedora, just because it's easier to
> maintain PostgreSQL there.

so a hypothetical 5s vs 100s issue combined with the fact that 'not
understanding how the packaging system on the OS I rely on and that I
have deployed on "dozends of servers" works' will make them switch their
entire platform to a different distribution?

Stefan